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Re: I am YET to be convinced, and points to ponder
Posted by Cassima on 1/12/06

    You don't have kids, do you?

    Another thing: Just because they are fully flighted and have
    the roam of your house does not mean they are adequatly using
    their wings, anyway. Especailly for those big birds with the
    equally large wingspan that need a equally large space to fly.
    There is not enough room in the common house for them to get
    the distance they need for cardiovascular exorcise in the first
    place with walls that seperate each room, and the common middle-
    class bird owner does not live in a mansion. Just think about
    it.

    I do not condone those who keep breeder birds in "flight
    cages". You cannot spend time with breeder birds as you do with
    pet birds. They have a mate, both can fly and this drives
    their "flock" thinking, which is a wild behavior when with
    their own kind. If you keep a free-flight aviary, this keeps
    them in shape, and the flock keeps them entertained. This is
    not how a pet can think because they are with humans in a made-
    for-human environment, not other birds in a made-for-bird
    environment. There is a BIG difference in those aspects of how
    birds will live their lives.

    I am still not convinced. Keep trying, but until you tell me
    you have one room that is bigger then and average bedroom and
    completely birdproof with every activity for their senses and
    muscles to be top-notch FOR BIG BIRDS, at that, I will
    stereotype you with the rest of the lazy and ignorant owners.

    If you knew any better, you would understand I had a hard time
    biting my tounge on that persons post. The bird hurt his wing,
    so he DID look happier and healthier BEFORE he was clipped.
    Duh. Do you think the pesron who wrote the first post EVER took
    her bird to the vet after she posted? She has not posted back
    in 2 days, so she probably didn't like what she read about TWO
    people urging her to take the bird to the vet. This means
    INVOLVEMENT!

    This is one of the worst examples about pro-clipping I have
    ever seen. That OP's bird was entertained and happier with his
    wings, and now is probably board stiff because his owner does
    not give him enough attention and activities to keep him
    occupied, and this will altimately cause a birds' depression.

    But who am I to cut into what she does in her home? I don't
    know this, niether do you, so hence "if this is the only
    environment your bird has ever known", because your bird is the
    product of the life you give it. If they do not have their
    wings at a young age, or when they are clipped when being re-
    homed, they find ways of adapting by just gliding and playing.
    Sometimes, that adeptation is to pluck because it gives them
    something to do or an outlet for agression, even fully flighted
    that is let out of its cage.

    Your persistance to beat the dead horse about comparing
    clipping to cutting legs off is insane. They get around just
    fine without their wings. You don't go from parrot to carrot
    when you clip- you would if you cut the WHOLE WING off at the
    bone; that takes away their balance- but, as in parapalegics
    and amputies, they WILL find ways of adapting. These people
    still have their arms and build streagth in the upper-body and
    use their hands all the time, as birds can still walk, climb
    and glide. THEY ADAPT if you let them. If the owner takes the
    proper steps, you can keep birds in top shape. I do keep mine
    in top condition, because I have to think like a human in a
    bird body, not like a bird.

    I give them spaces where they have to glide to get where they
    are going for a short distance. I play games with them. Every
    day, I rotate what they do, between the shower curtain on the
    floor I spread millet seeds, fresh corn, chopped kale and diced
    fresh carrots they can nibble on in their own birdy way (and it
    they want it, THEY glide to the floor, I don't put them there),
    the cages are built tall and are between a distance of one foot
    to 1 and 1/2 feet away so they have to glide to the next cage
    if there is a treat on top, I have platforms set at the base of
    each cage I have toys on they have to flap or climb down to get
    to, I give them mounds of attention and play "Fly, birdie! Fly"
    with them ALL the time, they watch TV with me (and so far the
    shows they like to watch are "Who's line is it anyway" and
    those anmimal cops shows on Animal planet, and some cartoons on
    the Disney Channel), and there is a ladder obsticle coarse for
    them if they want to get to the highest perch at the very top
    of the window in their room if they want to see outside. I also
    have other activities and games I play with them.

    I am fully involved with my clipped birds. Are you as involoved
    with your flighted birds? Probably not- as they would rather
    fly then be your companion. This was your choice to allow them
    to have semi-wild habits. You can't fly, so why would they want
    to be with you? You cannot be an active flock member; you can't
    fly with them. If it does, it's just because he cannot find
    anything better to do, as it would see you as a peice of
    entertainment on his own behalf. This is just how a bird thinks
    and takes advantage of your ignorance.

    Human babies are born to be breastfed, but some mothers don't.
    You want to debate this, too? This is the choice of the mother,
    as it is the choice of the owner to clip. This is what they
    deem best for their birds and children.

    You cannot tell me that my choice to clip is "for the birds".
    Every time someone tells me they lost a bird, or the bird got
    hurt or he runs into walls (but not enough for them to injure
    themselves, mind you- just maybe a temporary concussion or
    brain damage that is unknown by the owner) I laugh my tether
    of. This is lack of common sense, and you CAN have healthy and
    fit clipped birds if you really do your job as a bird owner.

    It's just like playing fetch with your dog (Yet again, this is
    called "involvement"). The exorcise is good for them, but you
    either do it in a fenced in area or far enough away from cars
    so the dog does not get hit. You can't teach a dog that a
    MOVING car is bad, so you stay away from the danger by going to
    a large park or fence in your back yard; you can't teach a bird
    that an OPEN window is bad, so you stay away from the danger by
    clipping. This is called "creating boundries".

    How many people take the time to teach their birds about the
    dangers of their home in away the bird can undestand? Both dogs
    and birds can be taught to understand the word "No", but birds
    (as well as even some obeidient dogs) push their limits from
    time-to-time because they are smart enough to be conieving, and
    see if they can get away with it. If they really want to do
    something THEY WILL, and there is nothing you can do other then
    go and catch them before something bad happens. This is why
    people fence in their yards, shut doors, get crates for their
    dogs and cats and CLIP THIER BIRDS.

    It is the FAULT OF THE OWNER if the bird is not happy, not
    entertained and not fit, and just allowing them to fly is not
    going to make it all better. There are fully-flighted UNHAPPY
    birds out there that do get into the habit of plucking. Did
    anyone ever think of this? You can indeed have clipped, happy,
    healthy bird if you give them the environment that they need to
    keep all of their senses and muscles in peek condition.

    When you clip a baby after a few weeks of it learning to fly,
    it is better for the bonding time with the new owner. And, to
    let you know, ALL of the birds in my home where fully flighted
    when they came here. I never let them out of their cage until
    their quarentine was over and they were clipped.

    The first bird I brought into this house almost had a
    disasterous end. Being flighted all his life, I stupidly
    thought it best to let him keep his flight. He was a Mini
    Macaw. I gave him free range of my house. Then, one day, I was
    doing laundry, a common thing to do in today's household.
    Across the area of where my washer and drier are (this, also
    the door to my bedroom) I have a bar with a nice curtain I use
    to hide that area, and use the bar to hang my permanent-press
    clothes. His wing didn't clear the space between the wall and
    the clothing I had hung up, and it sent him into a tailspin
    that landed him in my washer, that was full and running.

    I was lucky this bird survived. I took him to the vet, and that
    day the vet clipped him under my direction.

    And some other stories about people who had fully-flighted
    birds from day one:

    A lady washed her fully-flighted budgie she had for 6 years in
    her dishwasher.

    And African Grey lost his foot after almost boiling it off when
    he hit the wall and fell straight down into a pot of cooking
    riggitoni.

    A Sun Conure got out while a contract company was replacing
    windows of the house, and was hit by a car when it landed in
    the road.

    A Hyacinth Macaw ended up with severe brain damage one summer
    after colliding with a glass decorative storm door that was
    open, cracking his beak and shattering the door.

    It was an "all the time" thing that a lady's 12-year-old Quaker
    drink from the aquarium on the other side of their large
    parlour. The aquarium was a tall 50 gallon, and all the lady
    could do is watch her bird drown when it fell in because she
    could not reach him in time.

    A Rose-breasted Cockatoo died from freezing in an attic- he was
    fully flighted, flew up the stairs, but the owner did not know
    he was up there and shut him in after pulling down Christmas
    decorations.

    A Bourke Parakeet broke his own wing off within the top bars of
    his own cage while the family was on vacation and ultimately
    bled to death.

    A Cockatiel peirced himself on a natural tree branch his owner
    put inside his cage, bled to death at night while the owner was
    asleep.

    A Hyacinth Macaw killed herself when she crashed and shattered
    a chandlier.

    It was a 14-year-long tradition that "the whole family" be in a
    certain room for Christmas. A lady's son brought their Severe
    Macaw into the family room- something spooked her, and she
    landed in a lit fireplace. She will never be able to re-grow
    feathers on her under-belly, tail and legs, ended up with 3rd
    degree burns on her legs, chest and posterior.

    A Lesser Sulfer-creasted Cockatoo was flying and the
    gentleman's cat sprang up and clawed him out of the air, bit a
    leg off and broke a wing. The bird had to be put to sleep after
    the vet tried to repair the damage, but found severe internal
    bleeding.

    While the owner was away (just a quick run to the grocery store
    for milk), a Husky chased a 5-year-old Cunure through their
    home and killed it when it fell from exaustion. The dog was
    sitting proudly at the door with the dead bird at her feet. The
    dog and the bird had a history of this, and the owner thought
    it was just "play".

    You are not going to stop a bird if something causes him to
    crash, get lost or get caught by another pet, and all of these
    owners were long-time owners of these birds, and it was a
    tradition of such behaviors. Would you ever think to close the
    inside door on a beautiful summer day?

    It's only a matter of time before there is an "accident"- which
    will be your own fault for allowing it to happen, and you will
    find no sympathy from a veterinarian when the time comes. The
    guilt on the owners part is unspeakable and embaressing to talk
    about. This is why people who have accidents with their
    flighted birds rarely speak up about it. If flight is such a
    good thing, then why don't people think of the most common
    activities we do normally (using the dishwasher, doing laundry
    and cooking) as being hazards?

    Keep trying to convice me. You are fighting a losing battle.

    On 1/12/06, Patsy wrote:
    > Posted on the Cockatiel Chat:
    > http://birdmart.com/chatboards/cockatiels/topic4454/1.10.06.16
    > .53.34.html
    >
    > Re: wings
    > Posted by Cassima on 1/10/06
    >
    > If that is the only environment the bird has ever known, of
    > coarse he will be happier and healthier. That is why it is so
    > important to clip a bird after it has learned to fly, then
    > the owner steps in and shows new activities and entertainment
    > to make up for it.
    >
    > I would strongly urge you to consult a vet. Your bird may be
    > sick, or possibly bored. If you want him to have his flight
    > back, the next moult don't clip his wings, but it depends on
    > how long ago he shed his feathers.
    >
    > __________________________________________
    >
    > Let me take a quote from the advise given to this cockatiel
    > owner regarding why her birds was happier when it could fly:
    >
    > "If that is the only environment the bird has ever known, of
    > coarse he will be happier and healthier. That is why it is so
    > important to clip a bird after it has learned to fly"
    >
    > ~~~~~
    >
    > This is great advise. Lets clip their wings BEFORE they have
    > a chance to realize how HAPPY they could be if allowed to
    > fly. No toy in the world could ever make up for that.
    >
    > Like Scott, I also own a fully flighted macaw, as well as a
    > cockatoo. Keeping them safe in your house is actually very
    > simple. All it takes is some common sense from the owner,
    > just like owning children.
    >
    > How many times to you think a baby falls before learning to
    > walk? Would you cage them in fear they may break a leg?
    > Birds will also bumb into things when learning their
    > surroundings. A bird that has been fully flighted from a
    > baby is very agile and can maneuver on the drop of a hat.
    >
    > Although all concerns for both baby and birds are valid, the
    > idea of cutting wings to deal with them is just as barbaric
    > as cutting of your childrens legs.

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